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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:06 pm 
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Hey Guys and Gals.

With the idea in mind that I want to upgrade the standard steering componentry with something more modern and accurate, I cannot seem to find a system that is the "go to upgrade".

Reason being, I have the plans to put a 13b turbo rotary into a 1600 sedan and, I keep being told that the largest hurdle is getting the exhaust to fit with the standard steering being how it is. As I am looking to modify the car while leaving it relatively easy to work with, I don't really want things to JUST fit...

So, a more modern steering system might be an answer/option to the lack of room issue that I will be facing in the near future.

REI600

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:04 pm 
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I'd love a more modern rack and Pinion type steering setup in my car also. People have done it. But its not easy. I'm not sure where to start. Perhaps looking at something that is roughly the same size car and seeing if you can find something that will fit, then adapt it?
There was a write up on here before about doing a rack and pinion conversion, but most of us were less than impressed as the guy didn't put up any pictures and claimed it was for "safety reasons" or something as he was a "qualified engineer" but couldn't back up what he was saying.

Biggest thing is the bump steer and few other issues with changing the steering geometry with something more modern. But i'd love to look into it a bit more and see if I can make something work myself. Side project perhaps.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:55 pm 
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RJB510 wrote:
I'd love a more modern rack and Pinion type steering setup in my car also. People have done it. But its not easy.


Hey RJB510,

This is something I have done A LOT of reading into, both in Aus and abroad and, nothing is straight forward. The common question is, "Why do you need it?". My answer is simple but, not enough to warrant the upgrade. I am looking for something more modern and have something with less slack and that is less likely to slacken as time passes.

Everything that I have read has pointed towards the brace that DatSport sell is MORE than enough to stiffen the steering in the sort of car that will be primarily street driven with a little track use (which is my needs in a nutshell). For the head aches and costs involved, it is not something I think I can justify for the "gains".

The second most common thing said is that the cars "never handle as well as they did" which is kind of the opposite of what I think we are trying to achieve.

It has been done and it is possible but.... for me.... just not worth it. As I am putting a rotar in the engine bay anyway, it will only make the steering slightly heavier (if at all) than standard.

So for now... not a priority.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:29 pm 
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Location: Western Australia
Give les collins a call at www.lescollinsracing.com

He has just done a escort quick rack in a 1600 i believe.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:06 pm 
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lampy wrote:
Give les collins a call at http://www.lescollinsracing.com

He has just done a escort quick rack in a 1600 I believe.


A mechanic that I deal with quite a bit has recently got himself a 1600 for one of his boys and he did mention that an escort rack MIGHT work depending on where it bolts. I believe that the escorts bolt front of x-member (which would suit me perfectly) but that was just having a quick look....

I will have to have a look and see what he come up with :D

Thanks for the lead.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:12 pm 
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I suppose this is pretty well known but I have found this guys writings pretty in depth.

Turbo Rotary Datsun - Rack And Pinion

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:05 pm 
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lampy wrote:
Give les collins a call at http://www.lescollinsracing.com

He has just done a escort quick rack in a 1600 I believe.


The idea excited me enough for me to hit him up for info straight away. I asked him about the steering conversion/upgrade and.....

Was just whispers.

He hasn't made this conversion and, the one he has done, is "not something most people would be too willing to pay the cost of."

As we all know, there are options but... not too many of them are viable for the vast majority and even less actually NEED them... more of a "want" I think.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:50 pm 
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That would be my car.

Don't know where the esky part came from... hey it is the internet though so anything goes I guess...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:12 pm 
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I guess how much is too much to pay for a rack and pinion is very subjective.......I'm on my third steering box after doing the swap over to a collapsible column and not happy with the dead spot when changing direction and this box is by far the best of the 3!.....Who knows maybe I've been driving modern cars for too long

Seems everyone I spoke to was from all the usual sources was averaging about 1 out of every 3 boxes they got their hands on were actually not so badly worn that could actually be considered usable. Seems even Baz has been out of stock with boxes for sometime.

Time will come were R&P will be the only viable option and it seems to be the one missing part now that you can get guards / bonnets repro and a large assortment of rust repair panels (and good steering IMHO is up their with good brakes)

I'm personally prepared to spend good money on R&P since I'm done chucking away money and subpar steering boxes, I didn't blink spending $2k on good brakes and plenty of guys have spent much more than that, whats good steering worth???

Would be fantastic if DATSMO could share any details of the R&P he had done.....as it isn't just the rack, it's Steering Column and joining it to the rack is a challenege as well as starters tend to get in the way of the spine on the rack

swanny


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:48 am 
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Not trying to be a D!ck but its really not up to me to tell how the R&P was done. IMO

Les has a family and makes a living working primarily on Datsun's, which is something that I admire him for, and as far as i'm concerned the design of the R&P is his intellectual property.
If he wants to tell everyone who rings him up exactly how he did it then that's entirely up to him. But I don't believe I have the right to disclose that information, and feel it would be insulting to him if I were to do so.

The only reason i chimed in is because of the misinformation that was being given in relation to it. It hasn't even been finished or tested.

This particular rack and pinion is going in a purpose built race car and he is correct in saying that is probably not something people would entertain on the cost/benefit scale for a street car.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:50 am 
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-datsmo- wrote:
Not trying to be a D!ck but its really not up to me to tell how the R&P was done. IMO

Les has a family and makes a living working primarily on Datsun's, which is something that I admire him for, and as far as I'm concerned the design of the R&P is his intellectual property.
If he wants to tell everyone who rings him up exactly how he did it then that's entirely up to him. But I don't believe I have the right to disclose that information, and feel it would be insulting to him if I were to do so.

The only reason I chimed in is because of the misinformation that was being given in relation to it. It hasn't even been finished or tested.

This particular rack and pinion is going in a purpose built race car and he is correct in saying that is probably not something people would entertain on the cost/benefit scale for a street car.


I agree with you 100% as I spoke to Les. He is more than happy to have a chat with me about the idea but, also all too willing to tell me realistically that, for a road car/weekend warrior, it just is not something most people will even consider. He was not happy to go into details aside to say it was not the escort rack.

What he did is his engineering and completely his design. More power to him. I am not clever enough.

If there were a method to get one of these set up in the car that i am building for a reasonable cost, i'd jump on it. but... from what I have read and what Mr Les has said, that will not be happening any time soon.

swanny wrote:
Time will come were R&P will be the only viable option and it seems to be the one missing part now that you can get guards / bonnets repro and a large assortment of rust repair panels (and good steering IMHO is up their with good brakes)


I really hope you are right mate. It seems to be the missing link for sure. The one MAJOR thing that would make a MASSIVE difference to the car's handling. Les was more than happy to have a chat with me, maybe have a chat with him directly mate and see what you guys come up with??

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:29 am 
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We have invested quite some time & money over the years investigating a few types of rack & pinion steering designs.
How does one recoup these costs?
To do a successful conversion is expensive.
Our research has come up with the following.

1. A completely new front end is required. Adaptable to various engines.
2. A custom built cross member is required.
3. A new steering rack is required.
4. For street use power steering is required. ( that's if less than 3 turns lock to lock is utilised)
5. New LCAs are required. ( with adjustable track) to suit various struts & wheel combinations.
6. Custom steering knuckles are required.
7. Radius rod brackets need to be replaced. ( adjustable)
8. Steering column requires replacing.
9. Engineering costs to obtain RTA approval.
10. Would we be able to justify these costs based on projected sales???

When we designed our universal fitting kit 15 years ago we endeavoured to allow for easy fitment, strength & handling improvements.
The major constraint was cost. Could the market support all the modifications that we would have liked to include.
So we had to do the best we could for the price. We had to compromise.

The R&P conversion we considered would have to have no compromises.
A fully universal kit. All new parts. Relying on sourcing used parts & reconditioning them is unsustainable.
We now find that sourcing 200B front ends for our current conversion kit has become so difficult that we are considering ceasing production.

We have estimated that a complete R&P front end ( excluding struts) would have to be in the vicinity of $5000.
We have sourced two suitable racks, so no problem there.

A couple of pics of our radius rod proto type that we built & tested.


Attachments:
rod bracket.jpg
rod bracket.jpg [ 36.57 KiB | Viewed 6042 times ]
radius rods.jpg
radius rods.jpg [ 76.65 KiB | Viewed 6042 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:51 am 
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Major issues are the strength of the rack mounting to allow ZERO flex.
Bump steer, roll under Or roll over steer. Ackerman.
One of our designs has the rack mounted inside the crossmember for rigidity & space constraints.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:45 pm 
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I think 5k is an extremely good price for something that covers everything you said above.

Especially when you consider the cost of a new front end and a decent steering box.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:16 pm 
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-datsmo- wrote:
I think 5k is an extremely good price for something that covers everything you said above.

Especially when you consider the cost of a new front end and a decent steering box.



i was thinking the same thing.
baz if if you had something ready to go i would get one.


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