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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:49 pm 
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No worries, I just figured you may have skimmed over the details or not seen the post that explained how it was modular. I'm finding as I get older I'm getting lazy when I read and find I that I have to force myself to slow down and take it all in. All good, no need for apologies.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:38 am 
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I have to ask, Has anyone on here got one of the units from Large Industries??

If yes - How do you rate it??

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:45 pm 
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I know that there are a number of people who have expressed a serious interest in the Large Ind R&P kit....some have stepped up to purchase a set, but I am not sure any have actually installed one yet, so a bit early to tell.

Michael from Large Industries has completed his L-Series engine mount version and I have personally helped him check clearances on an Bluebird L20B with Datsun 1600 engine mounts, brackets, large body Lucas starter motor, etc and a Bluebird front sump (ie. with the mid "bump" sump, so worst clearance compared to 200B front sump). We did this two weeks ago and that first version cleared everything beautifully; intermediate steering shaft and sump to cross member, start motor, engine block, etc - spot on. This first L-series kit is currently on it's way to the US to be fitted into a RHD 1600 wagon, so I am suspecting it will be the first one to be actually installed. Hopefully some of the Australian customers can get them in their cars and evaluate them too.....this is one of those ultimate upgrades that many have talked about, and it's finally here people....

If you check out the latest updates to the Large Ind FB page, you will see some pictures of a kit installed in a 510 2-door (mine actually)....my opinion of the conversion is that it is extremely well constructed, fits great, is a complete retrofit kit (including steering column, remember), has adjustable LCAs and includes a 2.5 turns lock to lock manual AE86 rack and pinion steering gear. The version shown on the FB page is for the SR version engine mounts.


Attachments:
Large_Ind Installed in car_1.jpg
Large_Ind Installed in car_1.jpg [ 1.77 MiB | Viewed 3511 times ]
Large_Ind Intermediate Stg Shaft.jpg
Large_Ind Intermediate Stg Shaft.jpg [ 1.46 MiB | Viewed 3511 times ]
Large_Ind Stg Column.jpg
Large_Ind Stg Column.jpg [ 486.34 KiB | Viewed 3511 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:32 pm 
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Pista_510 wrote:
I know that there are a number of people who have expressed a serious interest in the Large Ind R&P kit....some have stepped up to purchase a set, but I am not sure any have actually installed one yet, so a bit early to tell.

hey man!! That is awesome and exactly what I have been asking the guys over at large for... the straight on shot of the kit installed... This is what might help me figure out how/if the 13b rotar will fit in.

Can I ask a MASSIVE favor -- Can you give me a measurement from the chassis rail the each side of the steering input?? (close and far points?) That would REALLY help me out. In regards to customers, they'll have two in myself and my old manager just as soon as I've sold my wagon. He is getting the SR one and I am getting a blank one (no mounts). I just need some more measurements and I think those guys are BUSY as... I hate pestering them with questions about measurements and photos.

Thanks for the reply man. Sad that more people aren't jumping on this. Pretty surprising really.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:22 pm 
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First off, I would love to assist but the kit that is shown in the pictures is now out of the car - this was the kit that was used in the FB page shots and was used to finalise all the dimensions for the cross member to body mounting holes to allow for the production variation we have noted in many 1600s. However, I can endeavour to "scale" off the pictures to give an approximate measurement for you....give me a day or so and I will see what I can do. I will also ask Michael from Large Ind. to do another install to confirm...however, Michael is quite busy not only making these kits up, but working full time on his other customers cars...he just doesn't get on the computer much at all (despite his young age!) and is pretty much working in the garage at all hours! Anyway, be patient and leave it with me....


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:04 am 
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Pista_510 wrote:
First off, I would love to assist but the kit that is shown in the pictures is now out of the car - this was the kit that was used in the FB page shots and was used to finalise all the dimensions for the cross member to body mounting holes to allow for the production variation we have noted in many 1600s. However, I can endeavour to "scale" off the pictures to give an approximate measurement for you....give me a day or so and I will see what I can do. I will also ask Michael from Large Ind. to do another install to confirm...however, Michael is quite busy not only making these kits up, but working full time on his other customers cars...he just doesn't get on the computer much at all (despite his young age!) and is pretty much working in the garage at all hours! Anyway, be patient and leave it with me....

Really appreciate that Pista_510. That'd be very very helpful!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:01 pm 
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I would love to get my hands on one of these in the future, I think it will transform the car. If I was currently building a 1600 from scratch it'd be a no-brainer, but having a complete and running car it's kind of hard to justify pulling it apart, plus we all know it would snowball into an engine bay re-paint and who knows what else. One day!

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:10 pm 
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Anth510 wrote:
I would love to get my hands on one of these in the future, I think it will transform the car. If I was currently building a 1600 from scratch it'd be a no-brainer, but having a complete and running car it's kind of hard to justify pulling it apart, plus we all know it would snowball into an engine bay re-paint and who knows what else. One day!




:thumbsup: exactly what i was thinking plus you would run the risk of the motor possibly being in another position and having to re fab things but i rekon eventually i will go this set up


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:05 am 
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Congratulations to Michael and others from Large Industries who have taken the initiative to develop this rack-and-pinion conversion: having the option for a relatively simple bolt-up kit has enormous appeal. Please read my comments on this thread as they are intended, that is, sage advice based on having been down the path of designing and building rack-and-pinion conversions and having seen more than one race car rack-and-pinion installation that has not really worked as intended. Previous posts on rack-and-pinion conversions identified issues with any such installation. The issues do not go away just because the kit is designed to be bolted in. Regardless of how it is designed, such an installation will be a matter of compromise and some things become even more demanding because the conversion is a bolt-up installation. For example, following the original alignment of the steering column which points at the right hand chassis rail creates higher mis-alignment for the universal joints at each end of the intermediate shaft. This means that "phasing" of the UJs will be even more critical. This is not an insurmountable problem, as many front wheel drive cars have very large amounts of misalignment between the steering column and the pinion shaft. It is also critically important to have NO AXIAL LOAD on any UJ: axial loads can be significant when the chassis flexes to absorb loads, such as when you hit a large pothole. Hence it is a very good idea to have the intermediate shaft and steering column set up (say with a splined section or flex joint) to absorb axial loads (when the rack actually moves closer to or away from the steering wheel). Sudden axial loads can actually cause the steering to seize up. I can't tell by looking at a couple of photos if these things have been taken into account, but these are important safety considerations. I have no commercial or business interest, and offer these comments based on my own knowledge and experience. My only concern is that modifications are engineering with safety in mind (no malice involved).

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:53 am 
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AlanDatsomefun wrote:
Hence it is a very good idea to have the intermediate shaft and steering column set up (say with a splined section or flex joint) to absorb axial loads.....


Definitely important and some good feedback regarding fitment of a custom design.
Looking at the photos of the Large Industry product, it looks like there may be a section that has been painted afterwards which can expand and contract primarily for this purpose?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:01 pm 
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Agree ...on closer inspection, could be splined sections out of a collapsible steering column, welded in to become the intermediate shaft. That would work! A close look at UJs and phasing would be interesting.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:11 pm 
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Yes, excellent and sage advise from you both and very good observations of the Large Ind design.

The intermediate shaft is splined so that it affords the movement you refer to; it does allow flexure so that the potential binding condition is eliminated and will provides a collapse mode that should contribute to reducing the possibility of "jack knifing" of the steering column onto the driver in the event of a front end collision. Of course, the steering column, of Toyota Corolla origin, is collapsible.

In terms of UJ phasing, Michael was very conscious of this and phased the intermediate shaft UJs to minimise rotational velocity changes as the handwheel is turned. While the angles do appear acute, there was much effort to ensure zero binding of the intermediate shaft joints as it rotates.

In terms of the other design elements, while I cannot, and will not, comment on the design (as belongs to Michael of Large Ind) however I would say Michael's intent is that this whole assembly will under engineering certification as a system. The initial assessment has been to the comparative structural integrity and workmanship of the cross-member, cross-member mounts to the vehicle, mounting system for the steering rack to cross-member and the engine mounts including welded elements, material selection and thicknesses, relative to the standard / factory parts. I understand that this is being done as I write this and the results will be progressively made available by Large Ind...suffice to say the parts have been proven equal / superior to the existing crossmember design so far. I am sure Large Ind. would prefer the engineering assessment do the talking, however.....watch this space!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:51 am 
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Excellent!! Thanks, S. With due respect to the designer(s), I'd SERIOUSLY suggest beefing up the method of attachment of the crossmember to the chassis by the addition of a crush tube, doubler plate (not necessarily welded to the chassis, as I did) and long bolt each side through the chassis rail ... very easy to do during installation (and ESSENTIAL, in my view) and cheap insurance against the crossmember becoming detached from the chassis. Please see right hand chassis rail modification my photo posted Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:49 am, at the bottom of the photo:
http://ozdat.com/forum/download/file.php?id=31969&mode=view
Perhaps this has been thought about but not shown in this test install. No doubt finalisation of the engineering assessment is keenly awaited. Looks like a winner to me, and if I was still looking for R-n-P conversion, I'd certainly be looking at this kit!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:21 pm 
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AlanDatsomefun wrote:
With due respect to the designer(s), I'd SERIOUSLY suggest beefing up the method of attachment of the crossmember to the chassis by the addition of a crush tube, doubler plate (not necessarily welded to the chassis, as I did) and long bolt each side through the chassis rail ... very easy to do during installation (and ESSENTIAL, in my view)

Super clean install Alan. Very neat!!

As with the proposed install of the rotary engine using the engine's standard rear mount setup, I'll be putting some crush plates, long bolts and fishplates on that section. Seeing yours, certainly not a bad plan at all.

Pista_510 -- Is this something the guys over at Large Ind. have looked into at all to your knowledge??

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:43 pm 
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Yes, this is something that has been discussed as a suggestion but I think the approach was to have the consulting engineer recommend a final concept after an assessment of the anticipated suspension (from the LCA) and steering (tie rod force) loads that are now wholly reacted in the cross member rather than shared across the cross member mountings / chassis rail in the standard car.

Speaking for myself at this stage, I really like the solution Alan has implemented in his design (which is one amazing conversion by the way!) but there are, as he has suggested, a range of ways to do this. In the R&P conversion I did on my own 1600 over 20 years ago, I also used a Bluebird SII crossmember / steering gear / adjustable rake column / intermediate shaft (like Alan) however I did not narrow the steering gear or rack mounts like in his setup. What I did as part of the install was keep the engine mount "towers" on the cross member to, obviously, mount the L-series engine and, from memory, these needed no modification to fit between the rails; I cannot remember (and as the car is stashed in the back of the shed at the moment, I can't access it easily to confirm it now) if these would act as "shear towers" to absorb all the side loading through the 1600 chassis rails because I am not 100% they contact the rail anyway (maybe Alan can confirm this)? In any case, I have never had an issue with cross member slippage or fastener failure despite me simply redrilling the cross member to suit the 1600 chassis mounting holes and me reusing the original Bluebird bolts (I can't recall if they are a diameter bigger and / or a strength grade up compared to the 1600 - maybe I will check in the garage on the weekend, but I doubt it). However, having said all of that, I think some way to add this "insurance" IS a good idea and, if I was doing this again now I would probably simply do the crush tube approach (in fact, Datsport's engine conversion cross member also uses a crush tube).


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